Renovation of my 5th wheel camper...

i realize i was planning on an outdoor shower setup, with my camper, but as i was looking over the tub base that came out of the camper, i had thought the drain was broken from the base, when in fact the drain tail-stock is all that was broken. so it will be easier to put back than i thought. just put on a new tail-stock, and re-install the base.

now, it is quite clear that the walls around the tub are in pretty bad shape, so i will have to replace the paneling there first. for water-proofing, it had fiber-glass sheets on the walls, but those were in bad shape (hence why the paneling is also in bad shape). so i need to find something to make a surround with. my first thought, is to use some plexiglass or lexan sheets, and seal the corners with a good grade sealant. but at this point, i am almost leaning toward getting a little bit of sheet aluminum, and attaching that to the walls, overlapping the tub mounting flange so the water drains into the tub, and then sealing the corners. there is the chance of the aluminum warping with thermal expansion and contraction, but i don't think it will really hurt anything.

i am debating on what to use for the water valve. i like single handle mixing valves, but they don't do well with freezing, so i would have to make sure i use air to blow out the valve well, every fall. it would arguably be easier to just use a regular RV shower/tub valve. either way, i need to make an access panel on the other side of the wall, in the kitchen space, for access to the back side of the valve for install/maintenance.
i will be upgrading the plumbing supply lines with PEX tubing (red for hot, blue for cold), so in the event of a slight freeze-up, the lines will be more resistant to bursting. i will be making provisions for draining the lines, like drain valves in low spots.

i have not had much ambition for a while now, so not much has been done on the camper. perhaps today will be a good day to putter on something. i would like to get started on the battery box, and the electrical portion of the cabinet area, as so much hinges on how that is laid out. i have been hesitant to put screws in the floor in the area of the tanks, as i don't know how much clearance there is. i think there is some 2" X 2" floor "joists" between the flooring and tanks, but i need to verify first.

as the battery box and electrical cabinet is of a necessary minimum size, i will just build it, without a CAD drawing, as it simply needs to be what it needs to be. then i will figure out the rest in CAD. some stuff won't be figured out in CAD, as it just is what it is. for example, the couch/dinette will be built to fit the space. but when i get to the kitchen cabinets, i will need CAD to figure out the best solution for the space.

i do have some scrap lumber kicking around, and a full 4' X 8' sheet of 3/4" Advantec that i can build the battery box with. mostly a matter of motivating myself. i am currently on my second cup of coffee already, so being a bit wired from caffeine, i may just be little chatty. on the plus side, my mind is at work on getting some issues solved that have been bugging me. just a matter of making notes so i don't forget.

so, i was doing a little Spring cleaning, and i spotted my RV generator (Onan Microquiet 4000 4KYFA26100K). i still have yet to get it running, but i thought if i do, why not still use it in my 5th Wheel camper. so rather than use the bug vented hatch door for my battery section, i can use it for the generator, as i originally wanted.

granted, it is only 4KW, and single pole 120V AC, where my camper is 50A/240V service (actually two 120V poles, as there is no 240V devices installed). if the generator works, i can get an RV transfer switch, and wire the generator HOT wire to both the HOT poles in the switch, so both sides get generator power. though when on utility supplied power, it will still provide two independent 120V sources. now, of course, this will load the generator heavy, but at the moment, the only big AC device would be the air-conditioner, and i could leave that off while on generator power. the battery charger/power converter would be the next largest power draw, but it would be within the ability of the generator, so the LED lights would say powered, as well as the furnace.

though, with this, i still need to find a location for the gasoline tank. but it all hinges on getting the generator running. i may give it another go, if i can find a good battery to start it with. still suspecting the control board is faulty (replacement is $395 from Flight-Systems), so with it being a magneto coil, it has only a kill wire. so if i unplug the control board, i can power the carb fuel valve (to allow fuel), and the fuel pump, and then manually power the starter solenoid and see if i get a good spark from the magneto spark lead. if so, i can reconnect the wire to the spark-plug, and see if it starts. if it does, then i have a bad control board. if not, i have something else going on.

but i want to make darn sure that the control board really is bad, before i shell out more money on this frustrating generator.

well heck, went out to play with the generator for a bit... my camper battery was not only left in the camper, but left switched on! so yeah, it goes without saying it didn't survive the winter. no crack or leaks, but seems to have a mild internal short. it acts like it is taking a charge, but then the charger clicks off, and the battery has nothing in it still for a charge.

so, being out of work currently, this is a snag, but not a death sentence. i just have to save up and get a battery. a mild one at wally's world runs about $100, so i have something to save for. i think i have $38 at present...

i may move our utility trailer and see if i can get my truck close enough to run jumper cables to the generator. if so, it may possibly be a small enough engine to run straight off the cables... as long as i leave the truck running.

i have been trying to figure out a way to make my camper renovation as low cost as possible. appliances and plumbing fixtures are expensive, so it comes down to what i actually NEED, and then what i want.
i could revisit the idea of an outdoor shower, though this would limit where i could setup and be able to take a shower.

my intention is to eventually buy a plot of land, and add camper hookups, so i can spend the summer there. with that in mind, i would want an indoor shower, unless the plot of land is secluded enough that an outdoor shower would be fine.
cooking: i don't do much oven cooking, with the exception of microwave, so just a cook-top would be fine.
sink: unless i use all paper-plates (wasteful, in my mind), i would need a sink for doing dishes, and thus likely a hot water heater (on-demand, most likely).
toilet: if i have a sink and a shower, i may as well have a toilet...
refrigerator: this is where i am stuck. i could very easily build in a ice-chest cooler, and get by with it, unless i need to freeze something. ad where would i get the ice if spending all summer in the camper.
i could buy block-ice, and make a fan-convection cooler, so the cooled items aren't floating in water... but by the time i design all that, i could buy a thermo-electric cooler, and build it in... though those use a ton of power, and if i am running on DC for whatever reason, the batteries will go flat in no time.

there is merit to the built in ice-chest, for weekend camping, though. too bad i couldn't make something that is the best of both worlds, somehow. it would have been easier if the camper fridge/freezer that came with my camper was functional. maybe i could build a ice-chest that used block-ice for short camping, and had a Peltier style cooler for when plugged into power. would take some serious engineering to make it small enough to fit in a camper.

as for the water heater, i could easily build a solar water heater, cheaper than buying a LP gas unit., but in cold rainy days... no hot water.

as i ponder this whole thing, it seems like my wants are taking over my needs, and making it expensive. i gotta cut cost somehow.

so, shower is outside. i can get a shower tent for privacy.

no hot water, but provisions will be made to add later.

toilet is a yes, gotta have. not a fan of running to the woods or an outhouse in the pouring rain.

sink, at least one, possibly a small one in bathroom.

cooktop... could go with built-in, or a Colman portable stove.

fridge/freezer, not yet sure. camper units are very $$$$. block-ice is uncommon, sold at local store for $3.39 for 10lbs.(would have to experiment to see how long it lasts)


so, with the shower outside, that space is available for storage. that is a bonus.

so with things minimized, i may be able to complete this project and use it, before i die. it is not a show-queen camper, but that doesn't mean i can't use my cabinet building skills to make the inside look nice.

so, if i build a ice-chest... i could have the whole thing insullated with 2-inch foam. have the ice-block down low, with a constant drain for melt water. i could use some computer-style fans to circulate the air. may work... a little primitive, but it may work. i could also buy a dorm fridge...

For immediate, you could do a composting toilet. Separation of liquids from solids is key to odor control. Having a sawdust bucket also helps, toss a handful of sawdust atop solids to help draw out the moisture. When you get a couple of gallons of liquid, take it and dribble it along your property line to "mark your boundaries" for the animals to find.

Build a VERY well insulated ice box. Reflectix layer on the inside and outside of your insulation further helps to keep warm out and cold in. Buy yourself one of the automotive/camping 12V freezers and run it off a solar set-up. Use the freezer to make ice, turn it off when not needed. Jugs of SALT water will keep things colder when frozen, more so than ice made with fresh water. Rotate your jugs of ice and refreeze them.

You can get a 12-volt shower pump with pick-up tube to go into a bucket and a hose with a small shower head on it which runs off D Cell batteries (Cabelas sells them). You can buy rechargeable D Cells on Amazon. Haul your water to the shower in the pot you boil it in and dump into a 5 gal bucket. Two batches of hot water, top it off when cold water and you have enough water to shower with (Navy Shower, turning off the water while soaping/scrubbing). If you're using the out door shower during colder months, again, Reflectix isn't that expensive and does a wonderful job of heat retention.

Get a GOOD propane stove top with some of what you've saved elsewhere, and opt for a pair of large Propane tanks. One larger than the other, so you have a back-up when time to fill the larger one.

Spend your money on your solar system, and cooking. If you're not producing black water, that's a big headache avoided. Not just the whole tanks/dumping, but septic and drain field expense. Gray water can be drained into a gravel/sand filled pit with some landscaping fabric to separate sand/pea gravel from crushed rock for packing solid and run an insulated ABS drain down into it. The solid waste from a composting toilet can be composted (different one from food garden compost) away, or in a pinch sealed up and tossed into a dumpster. Again, keeping liquids separated from solids is your key strategy.

Upgrade one system at a time as money is available. Exterior shower for now is cheap and functional while building and converting black water tank to secondary gray water tank for more capacity if you can't dump as you use. Compost toilet can be as simple as a wood framed seat to fit a 5 gallon bucket into (lined with a trash bag) and a jug to store liquid waste in. Diverters can be gotten for fairly cheap for waste separation. A spray bottle of antiseptic cleaner to keep things tidy.

ANYthing you expose to framework, I'd layer Reflectix sealed with foil tape to help with the retention of heat. When you park it in place for long term, skirt it and an interior layer of Reflectix adhered to the skirting, you'll be much warmer in colder times if the floor isn't chilled by the cold wind.

Anywho... some food for thought.

Ratdog68 said:

For immediate, you could do a composting toilet. Separation of liquids from solids is key to odor control. Having a sawdust bucket also helps, toss a handful of sawdust atop solids to help draw out the moisture. When you get a couple of gallons of liquid, take it and dribble it along your property line to "mark your boundaries" for the animals to find.

Click to expand...

i thought of a composter, but my camper already has clear/grey/black tanks. i just need to test them for leaks. if they leak, then i will get a composter.

Build a VERY well insulated ice box. Reflectix layer on the inside and outside of your insulation further helps to keep warm out and cold in. Buy yourself one of the automotive/camping 12V freezers and run it off a solar set-up. Use the freezer to make ice, turn it off when not needed. Jugs of SALT water will keep things colder when frozen, more so than ice made with fresh water. Rotate your jugs of ice and refreeze them.

Click to expand...

interesting idea, freezing salt water. i thought too of freezing a mixture of automotive antifreeze and water. but i will likely build a good ice box.

You can get a 12-volt shower pump with pick-up tube to go into a bucket and a hose with a small shower head on it which runs off D Cell batteries (Cabelas sells them). You can buy rechargeable D Cells on Amazon. Haul your water to the shower in the pot you boil it in and dump into a 5 gal bucket. Two batches of hot water, top it off when cold water and you have enough water to shower with (Navy Shower, turning off the water while soaping/scrubbing). If you're using the out door shower during colder months, again, Reflectix isn't that expensive and does a wonderful job of heat retention.

Click to expand...

as said, i have the tanks for water, and i have a pump too. so running plumbing wouldn't be all that bad. i even have a good sink salvaged from a job somewhere. but outdoor shower hookups wouldn't be too bad, i don't think. and i am familiar with the "Navy Shower" style, so that would conserve water.

Get a GOOD propane stove top with some of what you've saved elsewhere, and opt for a pair of large Propane tanks. One larger than the other, so you have a back-up when time to fill the larger one.

Click to expand...

i have a nice 3-burner picked out, and i have a LP gas already in the camper for the 35Kbtu air furnace. i just have to upgrade the regulator, and re-do the gas lines so they match the new layout.

Spend your money on your solar system, and cooking. If you're not producing black water, that's a big headache avoided. Not just the whole tanks/dumping, but septic and drain field expense. Gray water can be drained into a gravel/sand filled pit with some landscaping fabric to separate sand/pea gravel from crushed rock for packing solid and run an insulated ABS drain down into it. The solid waste from a composting toilet can be composted (different one from food garden compost) away, or in a pinch sealed up and tossed into a dumpster. Again, keeping liquids separated from solids is your key strategy.

Click to expand...

i understand the advantage of not producing black water. i will likely install a toilet when i can afford a new one, but will seriously think on the composter.

Upgrade one system at a time as money is available. Exterior shower for now is cheap and functional while building and converting black water tank to secondary gray water tank for more capacity if you can't dump as you use. Compost toilet can be as simple as a wood framed seat to fit a 5 gallon bucket into (lined with a trash bag) and a jug to store liquid waste in. Diverters can be gotten for fairly cheap for waste separation. A spray bottle of antiseptic cleaner to keep things tidy.

ANYthing you expose to framework, I'd layer Reflectix sealed with foil tape to help with the retention of heat. When you park it in place for long term, skirt it and an interior layer of Reflectix adhered to the skirting, you'll be much warmer in colder times if the floor isn't chilled by the cold wind.

Click to expand...

i was planning on adding a layer of something, possibly reflectix would work, to the underside anyway. where there are no tanks, there is also no floor insulation.

Anywho... some food for thought.

Click to expand...

Thank you, and i am definitely thinking now.

it was cool out, so i worked on my camper a bit. i re-installed the furnace, as i had temporarily moved it to my workshop for winter heat. though this time i remembered to install the heating duct flanges on the furnace plenum, before installing it.
i think after lunch i may even connect the LP gas line up. i can't connect a tank and charge the line, as the stove, fridge, and water heater gas ports are not blocked off in any way. i also need to replace the LP regulator and supply hoses, as there is a fair bit of age on them.

i may have time to take a few measurements and draw up some ideas on layouts. after much planning and self-debate, i am going with a similar layout as original. it will be clearer if i draw something up. currently the plans are only in my head.

basically, starting at the living-room/bathroom wall, drivers side, will be a bench/couch that changes into a platform for a air-mattress. then a cabinet for the electrical stuff (battery charger, power distribution panel, solar charge controller, and so forth). this cabinet will be floor to ceiling, so wires can pass low in the cabinets, and high through the ceiling. beside that will be the cook-top on the counter-top, with the battery box below (will be sealed air-tight from living space, and vented outside). there will be enough space to run plumbing between the cabinet fronts, and the battery box. then it will be counter-top to the back wall. 90 degrees from that will be counter-top, with lower cabinets, and a sink. counter-top runs to passenger-side wall and stops. rounding 90 degrees from the back wall counter-top, will be some sort of dinette, with the water-heater (future item) under one side, in the wall hole the original water-heater was in (currently blocked off). then, over the wheel-well, to the door will be a low table, like a coffee-table, with a diagonal cut-out so you don't trip on the corner coming in the entry door.

but that all depends on how the measurements come out...

i went out to my camper this morning, before the heat of the day hit. i laid out my battery box by drawing on the floor. turns out i can't fit 4 batteries in the compartment, side-by-side, perpendicular to the wall. but i can fit 4 batteries parallel to the wall, in two rows. so it will work out. i just have to make it is little deeper. but i can make the cabinet depth deeper, and it will give me room to run the plumbing past the battery box, with the box being insulated.

also, no room for a dinette, but i can build my ice-box fridge there, and be happy.

that leaves just the couch/bench for seating. but if it is not raining, who really goes camping to sit in the camper all day? i will either have a screen tent outside if it is buggy, or plain seating. and that makes the renovation a little simpler, and that is always good. maybe a small folding table that fits inside, for eating in, in bad weather.

and that reminds me, this camper has an awning, that is in questionable shape. new awning material isn't super expensive, but i need the size (and money) to order it. so that will be great for enjoying outdoor seating.

future add-ons, wish-list:

• lighting for under the awning
• lighting back where the sewer drain outlet is
• all trailering lighting to LEDs
• extra 30lbs LP tanks to carry with (only need the two i have to start)
• new awning material
• new a/c unit (current one is not very efficient)

required before towing:

• fix the non-working trailering lights
• assess trailer brakes
• add a lighted license plate mount
• repair a few sharp edges (from previous owner)

current TODO, for camping in camper (not in order):

• replace wall and ceiling insulation
• replace wall and ceiling paneling
• wire ceiling lights
• run LP gas lines, and cap extra ports
• install water tank hookup hoses
• install sink drain pipe (will be hard, once cabinets are framed)
• install water supplies, flat on floor if possible (so no sags)
• frame out lower cabinets
• wire electrical cabinet
• wire and install water pump and filters
• run furnace heating ducts/hoses, and mount thermostat on wall
• install heating vents, and connect hoses
  • two in bedroom, one in living room, and one in kitchen
• install water tank level panel
• build cabinet interiors
  • 3/4" floors
  • 1/4" sides (extra strength will be added for shelves)
• install cabinet doors
  • 1/2" door plywood (to fit latches i picked out).
• remove flimsy bed frame from bedroom
• install toilet
• build bathroom vanity
• build storage into tub location
• replace valves on grey/black tank drains
  • leak-test all tanks, full
• hard-mount solar panel on roof
  • build protection cover for winter, snow-load
• build cabinet doors and drawers for bedroom cabinets
• install flooring
  • "click" together laminate, whatever color is cheap
• build bench/couch
  • fold out to bed platform
  • lifts up for maintenance access under
• build ice-box fridge
  • ice sits on metal drip pan, with outside-drain
    • could be aluminum heat-sink material
  • build in a Peltier cooling method for future upgrade

but anyway, it is a partial list (yes, i know it is long). but it is stuff i can mostly putter away at as i can afford it. some i will wait on, in favor of cheaper options that i can upgrade later. mainly i just wanted to give myself a idea of what is left to do. in short, there is a LOT left to do.

some stuff, like the ice-box, i can build early if i feel like it, and can get the material. and some stuff really depends on other stuff before it can be done.

Food for thought concerning cabinets and such. If they're modular in build, it'll make it easier to haul them in (out if need arises). Consider a French Cleat to keep them affixed to the wall (whether upper/lower). Countersunk screws frame to frame just inside the doors to make modular units as one. A ledger board (concealed behind the toe kick) screwed to the floor in which you can pop a few screws into to keep up/down movement from happening. Now, with a few easily accessible screws removed, individual modules can be removed for: repair, access to utility lines/wires, changes to needs with time, etc. For counter tops, removal of a back splash to reveal screws going down INto cabinet framework at the back and screws going UP through cabinet framework into the bottom of the counter top. Silicone caulk instead of liquid nails is easily dealt with for such times. A French Cleat also allows for ease of installation as it supports the weight after being set into place as you fine tune lateral placement in prep for screws to anchor. Same concept, framework to framework screws to tie them together and the ability to run screws into studs and/or French Cleat.

Hmmm, that could work to my benefit, modular cabinets and the French Cleat system. it will take some figuring on how to keep it as light as possible, as i don't want to camper to end up weighing more than it's rated weight. typically, camper cabinets are built in place, as it uses less material, and saves weight. but i like the idea of pulling some screws and pulling a cabinet right out, if needed.

one possible drawback, is wires are quite often hidden in hollow places in the cabinets... i think if i make the French Cleats stick out a bit, i can run wires as needed between the wall and cabinet. i can't run wires in the wall, as the frame is 1-inch aluminum square tubing, so not enough room to run wires in-wall. the wall insulation is Styrofoam boards. if it was fiberglass, i could at least run wires up and down in the walls.

not to say it wont work, just that some good planning is needed for it all to work together. i do like the idea!

the original wiring in the camper was oddly placed, at best. like the outside "porch" light switch, was mid-way back on the wall, on a cabinet, rather than beside a door. personally, i would rather use wire race-ways, or whatever they are called. that way a switch can be where it is needed, rather than just where it is convenient to place a switch.

as far as working on it today, i missed the boat. by the time i was ready to head out, it was 82F outside, and likely more inside the camper. yes it has an A/C, but only when the wire for it is hooked up.

so, after much thought, i am thinking i will go with built-in cabinets, rather than modular. not because built-in is better or worse than modular, but on the basis of material used. with built-in, i can cheat by leaving out sides and face to wall framework in some places where it is not needed. the counter-top can then be used as the framework that holds the face in place. i have seen this done many times in campers i have owned and looked at.

i thought of a Formica counter top, but due to cost, i will give it several healthy coats of polyurethane (Minwax, oil-based). it will not be as durable, but re-finishing the tops now and then to freshen them up would be as easy as sanding and applying another coat or two. care will be needed around the sink, and stove to prevent spills and splashes. but it is still cheaper to work with. i made a desk-top this way, and it is holding up well, still, to keyboard scratches, and an occasional spilled drink.

first purchase in a while for my camper: new LP gas regulator with tank hoses (OPD).
the original was not auto-changeover, and had POL tank ends, so outdated. i will inspect the rubber hose from the regulator to the under-frame gas pipe, make sure it is safe, but it is out of the sun, so it should be fine.

next expected purchase will be some soft copper gas line, and flair-nuts, as well as some isolation valves to shut off appliances that have not been installed yet. mainly so i can leak-test all connections.

PayPal Credit has increased my limit... this is a little scary as i am an impulse buyer, and i don't have much income coming in, steadily. i could easily use some credit to buy camper stuff, but without a steady means of replacing spent credit... it is rather dangerous. i have high hopes that i will get my IRS Tax refund, so i can finish my CNC router table shed i am building, so i can have the room i need to make money with the machine, making signs, and such.

this coming week is predicted to be a lot of rain, so i don't know how much i will be able to get done on the camper. certainly not as much as i would like to. likely just be working on my CNC machine, upgrading the controls with cleaner wiring (kind of a rats nest at the moment, with no labels).